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Scot: All right. So this happened the other day when I was at the gym. I was mid workout, kind of in my own head, and I passed by two guys that were talking. I didn't catch the full conversation. I just got one word. One of the guys said to the other, "Congratulations." And that was it. One word, all I heard in that conversation, and by then I had walked out of earshot of them, but it really stuck me. It struck me, and it stuck with me.

I don't know what they were talking about. It could have been a promotion, something personal, hitting a new personal record. But for some reason, hearing that word from one man to another kind of hit me harder than I expected.

Actually, I started feeling a little emotional. And that's not cool in the gym. For those of you that haven't worked out in the gym, it's not good etiquette to get emotional in the gym. But I've been trying to figure out what happened there, and it's just been on my mind.

At first, I thought maybe it was just the word itself. I don't necessarily hear that word directed me that often, at least not from other men especially. "Congratulations." I mean, that's a powerful word.

But I sat with it a little bit more, and then I wondered maybe was it something more than the word? I kind of made up this little story with these guys, like the relationship between these two men, that they had this deep relationship. They really knew each other. They had a close friendship and there was support there, and they knew each other's history and where they came from and where they're going.

So I think the story I crafted might offer more insight to me than it does to them, because I was just speculating. The way I interpreted it, maybe I wish I had that kind of connection with others in the story, and I created that story about them in my mind.

Mitch, when I told you this story, not necessarily how I reacted, but when I walked by, put yourself in that scenario, what did it make you feel or think?

Mitch: Well, the thing that kind of came, just as you were talking even, was I think I can maybe count on my hand, a single hand, the amount of times I've been told congratulations by another guy. I've done a lot of things that I congratulated myself for, but not a lot from other people in my life, or men in my life.

Scot: So really, for you, it was that word, just hearing that word congratulations.

Mitch: Yep.

Scot: How about you, John?

Dr. Smith: I've heard congratulations from people when I've had the big things, like graduating medical school. I heard a lot of congratulations from other guys. But I think outside of those big moments when everyone says congratulations . . . After you have a kid, it doesn't matter, man, woman, and child, they're like, "Congratulations." Outside of that, I don't think that happens as much as it probably should.

Scot: Yeah. Well, today, we're going to unpack all of my story with the help of Matt Checketts. He's a licensed clinical social worker from Huntsman Mental Health Institute. And we're going to try to get to the core of what might have been going on with me in that moment, and hopefully all of us can take something away from that.

This is "Who Cares About Men's Health," with information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health. I bring the BS. My name is Scot. The MD to my BS, Dr. John Smith. Say hey.

Dr. Smith: Hey. Good afternoon,

Scot: Producer Mitch is a "Who Cares About Men's Health" convert.

Mitch: Hey there.

Scot: And Matt Checketts is going to break it down. He's going to look into my soul. He's going to find out what I'm missing in my life. Matt, thanks for being on the show.

Matt: You bet.

Scot: All right. As you heard my story, what did you think about it, first of all, as a man? Not as a licensed clinical social worker, but as a man, did it have any impact on you?

Matt: When I hear someone say congratulations, I think I'd probably sort of think a little bit about big events and things. But I also think about just an authentic statement.

My guess is if you hear something like that, it might strike you in a way that kind of brings up, "Oh, this guy is being real. We're at the gym. Maybe he's just kind of putting things out there that are sort of true to him, and they're connected around that."

Scot: I think that there are a lot of ways this conversation can go. I don't know if it was the word congratulations. I don't know if it was this created story about having a ride-or-die that knows you and knows what's up. Like you said, maybe it was just a genuine, authentic moment. Maybe that's what I'm craving in my life. For all of us, that could have hit differently.

So now, as a mental health professional, is there anything that stood out to you in that story based on your experience and knowledge and training?

Matt: I mean, each day I work with people, and one of the things that they're doing is they're assessing if I'm genuine and sincere in the way that I'm interacting with them.

And so, as a mental health professional, I think if you're building friendships . . . You can say you've got a friend. Is that friend real? Are they somebody who you've got a good close relationship with, or is it a little bit more superficial?

So somebody who says congratulations, on one hand, that might just be sort of a basic, "Congratulations, you graduated medical school." On the other hand, it might have been something more substantial or personal.

And so, as a mental health professional, I think being true and sincere and genuine within our relationships, both personal, professional, in our community, I think it matters maybe even more than we realize. And certainly, as men, sometimes we get a little bit . . . I don't know. We perform a bit. At least that's what my wife says.

Scot: Actually, this might be a little side road, or it might bear fruit. "We perform a little bit." Expand on that. What's your wife observing?

Matt: I've got some fun stories. I've been married so long, I can't remember how long, which probably isn't great. I think it's like 28-something years. And I've got two great kids. I've got a daughter who is a therapist like me, and then I've got a son who's a police officer. I'm not sure what I am. I'm probably some kind of a mix of that.

And my wife, sometimes she might just say, "Hey, Matt, you need to kind of be a little more straightforward." And I tend to say, "Well, I am." Occasionally I step back and think, "Huh, maybe I'm not. Maybe I actually feel emotions instead of just anger."

So it's taken me a while on a personal level, too, to really kind of recognize when I'm feeling something and try to build off of it and maybe make some changes, or just find a way forward if I've got a particular struggle that I'm dealing with.

Scot: I'm really struck by this idea that maybe it was the authenticity and the genuineness there, because I think you're right. I think sometimes words from one man to another can just be very superficial.

I couldn't tell you in that moment if it felt genuine. I'm sure my subconscious would've picked up on it. But I love that because that's a different way of thinking about it.

John or Mitch, any thoughts up until this point in this conversation as we try to unpack this?

Dr. Smith: I was actually going to ask you, Scot . . . In that moment, obviously you had that feeling. Not to turn the tables on you, you're usually the guy asking the questions, but I'll go for it. Are there people who have given you a congratulations where it's meant more to you or you felt that sincerity? As you were talking, I was like, "Who do you have in your life that has given you that and how did you feel, Scot?"

Scot: Yeah, like I said a little bit earlier, I don't necessarily hear it all that often. That's a good question to ponder. I don't know that I have a good answer or story. And I think myself and any guy listening could ponder on that.

The thing that does come to mind is mentors in my life that say that, or people that I really, really respect. Oh my gosh, I'm unraveling here, Matt. I'm unraveling. Hold on a second.

I was going to say my dad. I don't know that I heard my dad say congratulations. Oh, this is what this episode is going to become. This is great.

Mitch: Oh, come on. You're fine.

Scot: I don't know that I've ever heard him say that to me that much. Every once in a while. And I definitely beamed when it happened.

Then I think about the movies that I react to, and it's always the mentor to the mentee that sees something that's exceptional in them, or it's the father to the son, like John Wayne in "The Cowboys." They weren't his kids, but that scene in that movie . . . And if you've seen "The Cowboys," you know which one I'm talking about. It makes me just break up every time.

Mitch: I think it's funny that you bring that up because I have a very similar kind of background. I've had mentor characters in my life who really felt that the only way to make me my absolute best was to withhold any sort of congratulations. They even told me so after the fact, right?

And so there was this weird machismo that happened a bit when I was kind of growing up as well. Men in my life never really congratulated me, period.

The twist to it was just recently I got married back in January. And just like John was saying, it seemed like everyone and their dog was like, "Oh, congratulations. Congratulations." And it really didn't impact me at all.

Not to help unravel you anymore, Scot, but there's something about when I told you, you said not only congratulations, but you talked about how it made you feel, how excited you were, how cool it was that one of your friends and someone that you work with has gone through the ringer with a relationship, in, out, gone to therapy, figured it all out, blah, blah, blah. There was something to that that just felt so real, so sincere, so magical that . . . I don't know. I think it'll be rattling around up in that subconscious of mine for a very long time.

Scot: Wow. That's cool.

Dr. Smith: The reason I wanted to ask that question is I think there are people in my life when I've heard those words come from them, it means a lot more than other people. And I think it's the people who know you, who've been there for the ups the downs, who've been there and watched you go through therapy, Mitch, who've seen those things. I think that's why a lot of that stuff means so much when the people who you know care about you say it.

When you see somebody you haven't seen in years, and you're like, "Oh, I just got married a month ago," and they're like, "Oh, congratulations," it's like, "Eh, you're just saying that because the social construct says that's what you're supposed to do."

But then when your brother shows up at your house and you're talking, and he looks around and he goes, "Dude, I'm really proud of you. You made something of yourself," those are the things where . . . My brother is someone I look up to and I respect, and he's done a lot of great things. And when he shows up and says those little things, it hits different.

So for whatever reason, when you heard that in the gym, Scot, it hit you differently because you're envisioning that moment of . . . I mean, I'm envisioning that. I'm now putting words in your mouth that you're envisioning that moment of someone really seeing you succeed and really being there just to pick up that moment and really let you know how proud they are.

Scot: And especially the little story I created in my head of this person that maybe knows this other guy, knows the struggles that he had to go through to get to the congratulations, to get to that point.

Matt, jump in, please. Help us make sense of this. Help give us some structure and organization here.

Mitch: Yeah, there are a lot of feelings and not a lot of direction.

Matt: Yeah, you guys are getting after it. Just keep talking.

The thing that struck me is that you mentioned your dad. Humans are social learners, so we learn from the people that are around us. And if you're around a dad and the dad is not necessarily just communicating a lot of emotion or offering compliment and congratulations, it may be that that's just kind of foreign to you or unfamiliar. So in a way, we have to sort of practice that. And unfortunately, I think there are a lot of times that we don't. And really, in society, men don't.

So if we were to look at some hard statistics, we'd find men dying by suicide at dramatically higher rates or being incarcerated at significantly higher rates than women. And there's probably something we could extrapolate from that. I think that there's this sort of common idea about how men do and don't behave.

I was just recently up at the Supercross motocross races, and it's lots of guys. There are lots of ladies there too. I think that it's kind of a mix of people. It's definitely a place to observe different behaviors, and I did that.

I think that when it comes to family systems, people typically kind of behave similar to the people that maybe they identify with the most.

One of my favorite areas of psychology is positive psychology. And the part of it that I think I like the most is when people learn to be optimistic or they kind of learn to be helpless. What that means is that they don't communicate about their feelings.

I mean, you guys did great. You're putting stuff out there and kind of speculating. That takes a person to be willing to be vulnerable and maybe not be perfect.

So again, social learners, they kind of replicate what they see. And it may be that in that moment you just recognized something that is a little bit new to you and may be something that you value.

Mitch: Matt, one of the questions I have is, is it common for men? I hear Scot's story. Is it common for men to feel almost a longing for connection or support, even though maybe they didn't realize it? I mean, if I overheard that in a gym, man, if you want it so bad, there's got to be something there even if you don't realize it.

Matt: Yeah, I think so. I guess when you think about the nature/nurture debate, that's not really resolved and never will be, although I think we could look and say, "How do men behave typically?"

I think that we think about our emotions. There's lots of information about how men behave and how women behave. One of the things that we definitely know is that men tend to internalize. So I think that, sure, it's recognizing something that you really have a need for, and maybe you're bottling up a bit.

I think we could all look into our own lives, whether it's sort of our family or friends or ourselves, and maybe recognize times that we just had a hard time communicating, possibly because it makes us feel vulnerable or weak or uncertain.

I think a lot of times it also has to do with what we believe about that situation. We typically think belief is something different than just what we believe about that moment and what the outcome might be. So if we question our beliefs about being vulnerable, that might give us a little bit of insight into why we would be willing to be vulnerable, kind of express our emotions, or what we wouldn't want to express and possibly why that is.

Scot: Do you think what your wife was getting at when she said that you put on performances is that maybe we put up shields?

Matt: For sure.

Scot: We put on the mask of the masculine man that's not going to be genuine, not going to be real, doesn't think talking about feelings is something that we should do.

Not only because that's what we've learned, right? I think everybody in this room came from a background . . . Let's just put it this way. If our dads were on this podcast, this conversation would not be happening. I don't know. Maybe John's dad. I think I speak for my dad for sure, and possibly Mitch's dad, although he's a lovely guy and I think he's grown too.

Mitch: Yeah.

Scot: I'm going to shut up, Mitch. I'm . . .

Mitch: No, it's okay.

Dr. Smith: You nailed it. I think you're probably right.

Scot: Matt, how about your dad? Did you have to learn this? I mean, is this part of the reason why you went into what you do, because there was a curiosity about it?

Matt: I don't know. You get into my dad, you're going to have to pull a couple of psychologists in here and start working on my brain. I mean, my dad is a trucker and a business guy. He's a very likable, gregarious, charming guy. He's not somebody who would talk a lot about his emotions.

And I think that what my wife probably was getting at is that while I've gone to lots of school and worked and done all sorts of things that in many ways probably has allowed me to communicate a little bit better, I for sure do not love talking a lot about emotions. I can do it, and I'm not pro-level at that. I'm just pro-level at listening to other people do it.

Scot: Right. Making other people do it. That's great.

Matt: Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Smith: My question to that would be . . . I think we've got all these men who put up these shields. Do you think that we choose not to do this, or do you think we don't recognize that we're missing something emotionally until we have a triggering event, like Scot had in the gym, or maybe something in our life that's a success or tragedy that kind of pushes us in that direction?

Matt: I'll give you my personal view that's maybe mixed a little bit with professional.

On a personal level, what strikes me is that I'm far more prone to be open and communicate if I feel like that that person is using language that is real. If I feel like somebody is talking straight out of a textbook, or if their communication is just kind of thin in sincerity, I personally struggle with that. The people that I find I'm a little bit more open with are just ones that say, "Hey, how are you doing?"

And even in terms of kind of a congratulations, it might be somebody that just says, "Oh, good job. That seemed tough," and I'm like, "It was. It was terrible."

Whereas if somebody sort of praised me in a way that just . . . I don't know. Maybe it just wasn't quite as . . . I use the word sincere or real or authentic. whatever word we use for that, that's kind of the basic of it. It's just got to be straightforward and it's got to be real.

Scot: All right. Let's try to do something with this. Like Mitch said, there are a lot of feelings going around and there are a lot of thoughts, right? We've talked through some of these thoughts that we have and what could be going on.

As a professional, Matt, what can we do with the information provided by this experience? What could guys take away from this that could actually positively impact their lives in your opinion?

Matt: I think probably the first thing to do is ask yourself a few questions. Oftentimes when we're thinking about things like this, compliments, congratulations, we just sort of get into kind of an automated response. We don't ask ourselves, "What am I thinking?" Think a little bit about your thinking. Question yourself.

That's something that I don't do great, but I try to do better at. I think we could all do much, much better at just questioning our own thoughts. Kind of what you're doing now. Just asking the question, "What was going on with me?" I think that's how we learn and figure ourselves out. I think men could do that a whole lot better for sure.

Dr. Smith: Do you have any good exercises that you use with your patients to try to help them kind of actualize these things or self-reflect?

Matt: Yeah. One of the statements that I've heard others make is this phrase of "I'm having the thought that . . ." It's sort of a way of facilitating your own thinking and questioning it a little bit.

I also think just basic mindfulness, which sometimes, at least for me, I would get that term confused with meditation, which I really can't do. The idea, though, of being mindful or aware is great.

Many times, I just believe that we go out, we kind of go through our day, and we don't stop and think and question and really be mindful about what's around us or how we're feeling. Instead, we just kind of react instead of thoughtfully respond. So avoiding that reaction and actually thinking and then responding in a little more deliberate manner is very useful.

Scot: I heard one time that emotions are a good kind of trigger to make you stop for a second and go, "Huh, I wonder why that's happening." Instead of just going, "I'm angry. I'm sad. I have this weird feeling that I don't have a word for," go, "Huh, what caused that? What could be going on here?" That's a good kind of indication that maybe some questioning should happen as opposed to just ignoring it.

Matt: Yeah. I think often we just kind of push those away, or we just fill them and then we go with them. We just don't give ourselves space between having some kind of a rush of emotion and then working through it before we then react to it. And it's a big problem.

Really, it goes back to some of those things that I mentioned earlier about the problems that men have in society. Those difficulties commonly are associated with really impulsive, reactive behaviors, and we can do better. For sure, it takes a little bit of practice. I think that that practice is simply just thinking for a minute.

And you're right, emotions are important. Oftentimes, though, we either ignore them or we react to them, and we probably just need to sit with them for a minute, think a little bit about it, and then kind of decide what to do next.

Scot: I'm trying to extract as much meaning out of this as we can. Do you have some more actionable steps that come to mind or things that we should do? Was that you, Matt, chuckling? You're like, "What do you want from me? I'm giving you it all, guys."

Matt: I got it. Let's keep going.

Dr. Smith: He's like, "I'm reading you the textbook, Scot. Geez."

Scot: "I give and give and give, Scot, and it's never enough for you."

Matt: Well, in terms of actionable steps, maybe taking steps. I mean, frankly, if we're really trying to figure out how to manage our emotions or we're trying to figure out how to connect, sometimes there's also this bottling up, sitting on the couch, not getting out and doing things. If men want to do better, they probably ought to go for a walk, be active. There's lots of great information out there about the benefits of being physically active.

So we think a little bit about some of the problems that men have, whether that's substance use disorders, or really just on a more basic level, some depression and anxiety that really goes unacknowledged.

And so I think probably the action item would be this: Find out what works for you. The reason for that is that oftentimes what strikes you isn't necessarily what works for someone else.

I had a patient a while ago where I was just telling him, "Oh, you've got to go for a walk." And it didn't work for him. I really had to kind of back off and go, "Okay. Well, let's figure out what works for you."

The reason for that is that you want to find your own source of motivation. So, for example, if you actually feel comfortable talking about certain things, but other things are just off limits and you can't do it, start with what's working. Build from that point forward. I think that that's a good way of looking at it, especially in terms of where you can build motivation, and then move forward from that particular point.

You don't want to force it. Again, you want to feel like, "I'm comfortable starting here and maybe I'll get somewhere else." For each of us, that's probably a little bit different. Even in terms of topics. Some people wouldn't be able to kind of get right down into it. Some people would. So start from where you're at.

Mitch: When you said go for a walk and found out that it didn't work for him, that was . . . Especially early in my mental health journey, it was like, "Ugh, what do you mean go for a walk? There's no way a walk will help this depression."

But it also required me to not just try out different things and see what worked for me, like you were suggesting, but also giving it an honest shot, being willing to be like, "Let's get over myself for just two seconds. Let's go for the dumb walk and see how I feel." And go figure, the dumb walk really did help, and it's something that I use a lot these days. So it was kind of cool to hear that back.

Dr. Smith: Yeah, I think the counsel of "just start doing something" is also good. Oftentimes, we may get kind of frozen in our own selves sometimes when we're trying to work through these things that are uncomfortable or difficult to do. It's like, "Where do I even start?"

And I think when you brought that up of "find the thing that works for you and start doing something" . . . Even if it doesn't work, right? It helped Mitch, it didn't help your patient, but both of them had to do something.

I think actually starting to do the thing is really the thing that will be beneficial. And I've seen that in my own life where you're frozen for a minute and then you start doing something, and you figure out that it may not be the first thing you try or the second thing you try, but you get there.

Matt: Yeah, I think those are really important points. In fact, I think a little bit about how people learn and then develop positive, healthy habits. It's just deliberate practice. They find something that works for them, they start to build a routine, and that gives them something to sort of move forward with. It gives them a sense of confidence, and that's probably where maybe you'd get a congratulations.

I think about that. I mean, where does the idea of congratulations come from? Well, it comes from you probably achieving something. How do we do that? We practice at it. So it's being intentional in what you're doing,

Scot: Matt, for a guy that is on one side of the spectrum, meaning kind of closed off, maybe not vulnerable, maybe has a hard time being genuine with somebody else, doesn't really necessarily have a lot of relationships with other men in particular, to the other side of the spectrum, somebody very vulnerable, has some good, close relationships with some other men, feels that support, that genuine relationship, tell me how life is better for that man on the right-hand side.

Keep in mind that every man is a little bit different, so maybe there is something there, but I think every man can benefit from those things. What would that look like? How does that enrich our lives from what you've seen?

Matt: Well, I think that it enriches your life primarily because you get feedback. You're able to communicate and problem-solve. You're able to figure out what's working and what's not working.

I like to think about it like this. If you're thinking about sort of typical, maybe even stereotypical dude stuff, if you're working on an engine or if you're a mechanic and you're there working with somebody, you're going back and forth. You're trying to figure out what's wrong.

And if you're just doing it on your own . . . I mean, you can. I would think, though, that if you're getting perspective from someone else, that's useful.

So why is life better for one as opposed to the other? Well, one has got a different perspective. One has got more people that are saying, "Hey, what do you think about this or that?"

In fact, I would even say this. As a mental health professional, it's so important for me to get the perspective of the person that I'm working with. If I was just coming in there and saying, "This is what I think you need to do," how would I know that? I have to really work collaboratively.

And I think in our own personal lives, if we're isolated and we're not able to go back and forth and chip away at it . . .

I have this kid that I work with. He's great. He loves to say, "Oh, we're going to chop it up today." I don't even know what that means, but I figured it out. He's a teenager and I'm 53, so I had to kind of keep up and I'm like, "All right. Let's chop it up. What are we doing?"

It's an example. It's a professional relationship, and at the same time, it's a good point of conversation. I mean, the kid is great, and it's a good way of going through and talking about some pretty difficult things.

He's learned to be fairly open, and he's actually really good with me where he'll say, "Hey, I don't think you're getting it, Matt." And I'll go, "Well, okay. Help me understand what it is that I'm not getting."

And again, I think that if you're looking around and you're saying . . . What happens if your emotions are isolated or you're isolated? Sometimes I've heard people say, "You need support." Yeah, you do. We all need support. There's also a different benefit. You need communication, and you need feedback, and you need feedback because you need to be able to hear whether or not what you're doing is working or whether it's not working.

So, I think about it almost mechanically. People with folks giving them their own thoughts, feedback matters. It helps you adjust.

Scot: All right. Let's head to some takeaways here and find out where this conversation ended us, because it was kind of thinking out loud, really. We were trying to make some sense of a story, an experience I had, to see if we could extrapolate that into something that might apply to you and your life.

So I'm curious to find out, Mitch, at the end of this conversation, where are you at? What's your takeaway?

Mitch: I'm going to be those gym bros. I have a buddy, my buddy Rob. We've talked about him before. He was on the show and he had survived his heart attack, whatever. We are really close, and we meet up once a week and we work out. Yeah, he is someone I feel I can be a little more vulnerable with.

I can't remember being like, "Oh, congratulations. Oh, I'm so excited for you." So you know what? Like we've mentioned before, sometimes to get some of that back, you've got to be willing to be vulnerable to others. And so I'm going to be that gym bro maybe this week.

Scot: Okay. John?

Dr. Smith: This kind of makes me think and double down on . . . I had a New Year's resolution. I don't know if I shared this on the show before. It was to tell people in my life around me how I was feeling about them in the moments that I was doing it.

But it just reaffirms . . . Your story is reaffirming that that's what I should be doing more of, and I need to recommit to that. I feel like it's been really nice to have those moments with people who mean a lot to me and actually be able to share that with them.

And so I think that moment that you saw at the gym, whether fabricated or not in your mind with the story, I really think that those are the moments that they do mean a lot. We look back on them and they have a big impact on us. And so you've allowed me to kind of rededicate myself to that.

Scot: I have a couple of takeaways. First, Mitch, I didn't realize when we had that conversation when you got married that it was so impactful to you. So thank you for sharing that because that gives me some information of how maybe I could also be that gym bro, right?

Mitch: For sure.

Scot: What I took away from that was I acknowledged and . . . It wasn't just a congratulations that was hollow. I acknowledged the details of why I thought what you did was really, really cool. I filled in some blanks, right? Sometimes we don't fill in those blanks, and I think that's what resonated with you.

So thank you for that. I will continue to fill in those blanks when I'm having discussions with men, whether it's using the word congratulations or whatever.

I think the other thing, Matt, that I took away is just this notion that we're social creatures and we need to acknowledge that. And we might have these masks on or put on these acts that we aren't, that we're tough, we're not vulnerable, all of that. But I think we need to acknowledge that we like to have that support and that closeness of a relationship in our own way with other guys that's vulnerable, and congratulatory, and genuine. So I think you have to do that more to maybe get that more.

And to me, that could feel pretty good, I think. First of all, acknowledging somebody else feels good and then having somebody else acknowledge you feels good. And I think us as men need to acknowledge that.

Matt, what are your final thoughts? What's your takeaway?

Matt: Well, I think my takeaway is just that that was an experience for you that you recognized value and meaning. And I think a little bit about times where I have said to a patient or a friend or a family member, "I'm happy for you," and I am. I feel happy. They're happy. It's just great to acknowledge it.

So my takeaway is to acknowledge what's happening. Say it out loud. There's no reason not to. In fact, it probably will hold a lot of meaning to those folks. I think we all like that.

Scot: Very cool. Thank you, guys, for allowing us to have this conversation.

If you're listening and you'd like to share a story, an insight, an experience, you can reach out to us. Email is a great way to do that. It's hello@thescoperadio.com.

Don't forget to be vulnerable. Don't forget to open up as much as you're comfortable, and try to experience maybe a little bit of what I experienced.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for caring about men's health.